SSDR to go up to 300kg? Dec announcement?

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Re: SSDR to go up to 300kg? Dec announcement?

Postby Randombloke » Thu Jan 02, 2014 9:48 am

chasleton wrote:I am excited but where's the money coming from


If we are able to make tugs SSDR then it's a saving - at least to the tune of the cost of the permit (£130/year for sub 390kg MAUW).

Not sure about the "Where's the money coming from?" as all that has changed is the possibility of buying and flying a Moyes Dragonfly in the UK.

The Moyes DF price is the same as it was before SSDR and is very costly, but at least now it is an option, and could be bought s/h elsewhere and shipped to the UK.

Can't see you getting much change from £45k for a brand new DF delivered to the UK and homebuilt with a 912. However, you could get a certified 912 with MTBO hours for about 1/3 price. I may have a zero hours option to look at.
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Re: SSDR to go up to 300kg? Dec announcement?

Postby chrisjonesbath » Thu Jan 02, 2014 12:00 pm

Thing is with the DF you don't need a 912 unless you are doing loads of tandem work. Bobby stated the DF was never meant to have an engine as heavy as a 912 anyway, but I guess most high usage flight parks like the climbing power and reliability.

The 582 is great though and is used by the German schools. I chased the German built 582 DF towing a tandem in my XL tug + light passenger in Avilla and couldn't keep up with the climb rate of the DF even with a tandem on the back it.

Most "clubs" would probably be better off with a 582 unless they are operating a full time towing based school as well, IMHO.

The interesting news here is the possibility of being able to get hold of 2nd hand stuff like the AirCreation Fun trike and use them for towing once our fleet of XL's expire. Mind you that does depend on there 1. Being some decent weather, 2. there being enough hang-glider pilots left to tow!

I can see schools getting excited about having a DF to tow with. The very reason the DHV sponsored the certification in Germany was so that they could have a good tug to help with ab initio training. For clubs I'm not sure its such a big deal, a cheaper trike with a decent climb rate is more affordable for most of us part timers. I can't see hang-glider pilots all lining up to tow on windy days, so trikes work just fine in the UK for normal club towing. Our biggest problem is that with the weedy ancient 462hp engine the climb rates are pretty crap.

I'm also wondering how do we ensure that dereg kit is covered by BHPA insurance for towing? Has there been any thoughts on this from the tech committee, anyone know?

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Re: SSDR to go up to 300kg? Dec announcement?

Postby Randombloke » Thu Jan 02, 2014 6:33 pm

chrisjonesbath wrote:Most "clubs" would probably be better off with a 582 unless they are operating a full time towing based school as well, IMHO.


Oh dear, premix, and cranks every 300 to 600 hours, as the life of a tug tends to test cranks. 912s can do up to 4,000 hours (one with 4,500 on it), and a second hand certified one at the 2,000 hour MTBO end of life could still do another 2,000 hours...

chrisjonesbath wrote:The interesting news here is the possibility of being able to get hold of 2nd hand stuff like the AirCreation Fun trike and use them for towing once our fleet of XL's expire. Mind you that does depend on there 1. Being some decent weather, 2. there being enough hang-glider pilots left to tow!


Or even new Fun 450s, for the better off, or fitting a Fun 450 wing to the older trike, or......

chrisjonesbath wrote:For clubs I'm not sure its such a big deal, a cheaper trike with a decent climb rate is more affordable for most of us part timers. I can't see hang-glider pilots all lining up to tow on windy days, so trikes work just fine in the UK for normal club towing. Our biggest problem is that with the weedy ancient 462hp engine the climb rates are pretty crap.


Yes, but the removal of the XL-R from the permit regime means we can fit a new engine, like the 1 litre Briggs and Stratton Vanguard. Mid 50s HP, and cheap, 4 stroke, or even a 582 if we are that keen on them. We would become our own design authority, subject to some BHPA consultation first.

chrisjonesbath wrote:I'm also wondering how do we ensure that dereg kit is covered by BHPA insurance for towing? Has there been any thoughts on this from the tech committee, anyone know?


Yes, the background work has been done ahead of the dereg being made law. You'll need to consult Mark Dale first, but it's not a surprise to him. Timetable now in Microlight Flying (BMAA mag), I'll leave Ollie to explain it all.
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Re: SSDR to go up to 300kg? Dec announcement?

Postby chrisjonesbath » Thu Jan 02, 2014 7:43 pm

Randombloke wrote:
chrisjonesbath wrote:Most "clubs" would probably be better off with a 582 unless they are operating a full time towing based school as well, IMHO.


Oh dear, premix, and cranks every 300 to 600 hours, as the life of a tug tends to test cranks. 912s can do up to 4,000 hours (one with 4,500 on it), and a second hand certified one at the 2,000 hour MTBO end of life could still do another 2,000 hours...



The two tugs we had in Spain which had 200+ plus when we started are still going strong. One has been in regular use for the last 10 years, and is on the original crank. Had a seal and a gearbox rebuild when required, but not much more. Unless you are a school you are not going to do the hours to justify 3 times the price of a 582 to get yourself a 912. Most Tow groups just don't do the hours to cover the extra outlay to purchase a 912 tug. Admittedly ours doesn't get used that much as we have some good hills, but I'd think 50 hours a year for a tug would be a lot if used by your average UK aerotow syndicate outside of the flatlands.

Yes 912s are very nice, but they are not essential, not even close. Its hard enough getting a bunch of hang glider pilots to stump up the cash to group purchase an old 6K tug, good luck with a 30K one unless you have some commercial school or rich boy interest in the mix.

There is nothing wrong with a good two stroke for towing hang gliders!

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Re: SSDR to go up to 300kg? Dec announcement?

Postby nev » Thu Jan 02, 2014 8:36 pm

.....thats just detail....
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Re: SSDR to go up to 300kg? Dec announcement?

Postby Randombloke » Thu Jan 02, 2014 8:55 pm

nev wrote:.....thats just detail....


You're right, but that doesn't mean I don't look forward to the day when 2 strokes and premix are history. At least the premix BS, which the motorcycle manufacturers solved in the mid 1970s.

Timetable for your worship is that the deregulation will happen on April the 1st. (Sense of humour, CAA?).
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Re: SSDR to go up to 300kg? Dec announcement?

Postby nev » Thu Jan 02, 2014 9:05 pm

I'd just like to point out my comment ("thats just detail") was a lighthearted response to Nicks "wheres the money coming from" and not the excellent detailed debate from Chris & Steve...........
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Re: SSDR to go up to 300kg? Dec announcement?

Postby Randombloke » Thu Jan 02, 2014 9:39 pm

nev wrote:I'd just like to point out my comment ("thats just detail") was a lighthearted response to Nicks "wheres the money coming from" and not the excellent detailed debate from Chris & Steve...........


You're still right though, I'd prefer a 1,650 hour 912 for about £3.5k to a brand new 582 without oil injection. Looking forward to the day when we can have industrial 4 stroke engines ready to go for the cost of two brand new 582 cranks. ;-)

There's this:

Image

Maybe changes soon?

But that's just me. All the strips around here are seriously waterlogged, but I have got my Atos back, rigged it and it's ready to fly. :)
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Re: SSDR to go up to 300kg? Dec announcement?

Postby chasleton » Sat Jan 04, 2014 10:05 pm

I happened to over hear a conversation 20 yrs ago. By 2 Xc kings they where discussing the club buying into aerotow group.
Pilot A. "You going to join the syndicate"
Pilot B. " bugger that not getting all that crap sorted out every time . I will cruise up when there's no wind and f..k off
So we didn't precede with that route. And that's the problem really the die hard few of us will relish new tugging options but really how many pilots are really interested and more importantly willing to invest.... I live in hope
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Re: SSDR to go up to 300kg? Dec announcement?

Postby nev » Sat Jan 04, 2014 11:02 pm

Yeah, its difficult in south-west where we are blessed with hills and therefore only need a tug (say) in 1 of 10 good days. But that 1 day will be one of the best.

You are right though in that someone, or a few, will have to bite the bullet and sink money into it. I wouldn't call it 'Invest' as there would be little expection of a 'return', but sometimes this approach simply has to be done to move things forward. Like the guys at Questair, who came together and started what has become a great centre.

I'm not suggesting we can mirror Questair, as our location & weather is wrong. But, I believe there will be 'something' that can fit. That 'something' is certainly not the usual club model of a few interested parties cobbling something together.

And when/if a good operation exists I believe its success would be catalytic. If pilots know they can get up (i) fast and (ii) reliabily, it would be popular. I cite Cambridge as an example - they are "reliable" (not "fast" though; still suffering long turnarounds with the low powered XL).

This will take more than just hope....it will need careful strategy & planning. One step at a time though.................
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Re: SSDR to go up to 300kg? Dec announcement?

Postby Johnnybravo » Mon Mar 03, 2014 9:03 am

Does anyone know the latest news on SSDR? Was there anything discussed at BHPA AGM over the last weekend?
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Re: SSDR to go up to 300kg? Dec announcement?

Postby chrisjonesbath » Mon Mar 03, 2014 4:10 pm

Johnnybravo wrote:Does anyone know the latest news on SSDR? Was there anything discussed at BHPA AGM over the last weekend?


According to this months BMAA mag...CAA to decide early April.

Expected that all new single seat fitting criteria will be dereg and existing ones will be able to opt-in too.

Nothing concrete till it happens though.

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Re: SSDR to go up to 300kg? Dec announcement?

Postby Randombloke » Tue Apr 08, 2014 5:49 pm

Didn't make the 1st April and still awaiting ministerial sign off.
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Re: SSDR to go up to 300kg? Dec announcement?

Postby nev » Tue Apr 08, 2014 10:08 pm

Awaiting signoff sounds like a done deal then? :)
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Re: SSDR to go up to 300kg? Dec announcement?

Postby Randombloke » Thu Apr 10, 2014 7:21 am

nev wrote:Awaiting signoff sounds like a done deal then? :)


Spoke to the GA Section head at a local safety evening and I was assured it will happen.
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