SSDR to go up to 300kg? Dec announcement?

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SSDR to go up to 300kg? Dec announcement?

Postby Randombloke » Sat Oct 26, 2013 11:32 am

Hi all,

CAA consultation for single dereg to go up to the maximum 300kg for single seaters.

Why should you care?

Because the number of potential tugs is much larger now, and maintenance easier without permits.

And lastly, because it means for the first time ever in the UK, the Moyes Dragonfly becomes a potential tug, if you can afford it.

May be announced at the Flying Show.
SteveU
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Re: SSDR to go up to 300kg? Dec announcement?

Postby nev » Sat Oct 26, 2013 5:02 pm

Thats brilliant news then (re: Moyes Dragonfly)

I take it that the weight was a major issue re: getting the Dragonfly thru Section S?

..........or are there other major obstacles?

From what Nick said in the past (I think it was Nick?), it sounds like the modifications the Germans had to do for their regulations have got us a long way too......

PS. For those who havn't aerotowed with the Dragonfly, it is the ultimate answer that has the potential to transform aerotowing in the UK. Safe, purpose built, tow speed slow or fast as you require (you choose!**), climb rates 600-900 fpm (depending on engine).

** - and not dictated by the stall of speed of what we've been forced to use, e.g. Quantum is I recall 42mph - crazy!
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Re: SSDR to go up to 300kg? Dec announcement?

Postby Randombloke » Sat Oct 26, 2013 6:33 pm

There are a number of issues that prevent the Dragonfly getting Section S.

It would never get it as a dual seater, so very limited market. The reason for the lack of dual seat certification is that the MAUW is 300kg, and it's 150kg empty, with no fuel.

CAA Section S expects a two seater to be able to carry 2 x 86kg adults and half an hour's fuel. So no Section S as a dual seater. As a single seater, the market is tiny and not worth doing a Section S, you'd never make your money back. The fully fueled weight is 170kg, so in reality it's a single seater.

It's too heavy to qualify as a sub 115kg SSDR. As a 300kg SSDR, it's ideal. It can be 582 or 912 powered, so that's a 64 HP or an 80 HP engine. The 912 will cost you about £13k, and you haven't bought the airframe. I think a 582 is about £5k new. The Dragonfly needs an engine like the 1 litre Briggs and Stratton Vanguard to make it affordable, the 990cc Vanguard can be tuned to about 50 HP without too much hassle and costs about £3.5k. I think the Dragon fly needs about 65 HP to be viable as a good tow work horse.

The Dragonfly should be able to come in without any sort of airworthiness, as long as it's under 300kg placarded all up and meets the stall criteria (it does!), which is 35 knots, I think.

There are currently 5 microlights with permits that include towing, P&M XL-R, Air Creation Fun 18, Cyclone AX2000, P&M Quantum 912 and P&M Quik GT450.

The Quantum 912 stalls at 38 mph and can be just about flown at that speed, but is in reality very hard to keep straight at that speed and would be interesting with a glider on the back. I wouldn't want to be towed behind one on anything except a rigid, and I say that as a Quantum owner. Plus points would be climb rate compared to XL-R. BHPA rules now only allow it with the highest aspect HGs.

The Moyes Dragonfly basic kit without engine, instruments, ballistic reserve, towing kit, taxes, etc is $22,500. Fully built price with 582 sans tax is about $51,000.
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Re: SSDR to go up to 300kg? Dec announcement?

Postby nev » Sat Oct 26, 2013 7:20 pm

Steve, thanks for that very detailed reply.

Is my understanding correct? - as follows.....

(1) If the 300kg SSDR rules come in, we would be able to import/build/use a single-seat version of the Moyes Dragonfly, with just a few regualtory hoops to jump through, but nothing like the expensive Section S (£30k+ ?)

(2) Even if (1) goes head, if we 'were' to require a dual-seat version of the Moyes Dragonfly, then we'd need to go for a Section S (£30k+ expendtiture to jump thru some bigger hoops) and keep within the 450kg limit, which looks possible.

This is exciting news. IMHO one of the bugbears of UK towing is the turnaround on good days; with a turnaround of (say) 10~15 minutes per flight using an XL, groups can't be too large before the turnaround launch time for the last person in the queue becomes unacceptable. Turnaround maybe not a problem for lesuire flying & sledge rides, but will get frustrating on good XC days.

As you say, the Quantum is only really suitable for Rigids. That was sadly demonstrated 2 years ago and the circumstances still anger me .

The turnaround times using a Dragonfly has to be seen to be believed. I dream of the day when we are ready to tow at 10:00, the first 8 VR's set off by 11:00, and we continue hunting as a pack around that 180 mile triangle. Possible? - Yes; even back for tea at 4:30 :)
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Re: SSDR to go up to 300kg? Dec announcement?

Postby Randombloke » Sat Oct 26, 2013 7:56 pm

nev wrote:Steve, thanks for that very detailed reply.

Is my understanding correct? - as follows.....

(1) If the 300kg SSDR rules come in, we would be able to import/build/use a single-seat version of the Moyes Dragonfly, with just a few regulatory hoops to jump through, but nothing like the expensive Section S (£30k+ ?)


If the current proposal becomes law then there will be no regulatory hoops to jump through, except to remain within the 300kg MAUW and 35 knot stall, and to register and insure the aircraft. The pilot has to have a licence.

The person who registers the Dragonfly will effectively be the design authority and will be saying that it is OK to fly.

But to make a 1 word answer, YES!

nev wrote:(2) Even if (1) goes head, if we 'were' to require a dual-seat version of the Moyes Dragonfly, then we'd need to go for a Section S (£30k+ expenditure to jump thru some bigger hoops) and keep within the 450kg limit, which looks possible.)


The Dragonfly will never be a dual seater in the UK, without SERIOUS work. Moyes placard it as 300kg MAUW. Unless beefed up it would not get to 450kg and could not do so as it stands. 300kg MAUW, 150 kg empty, 2 x 86 kg occupants plus 12 litres of fuel (8.5kg). That's the requirement for Section S, that you have to be capable of empty weight plus two occupants plus half an hour fuel and still be under the manufacturer MAUW if it's under 450kg.

172 + 150 + 8.5 = 330kg. 330 > 300. So it would need to have a minimum all up of 330kg to certify to Section S, and in practice it would need to be more than that to be certifiable with the 912. Not sure how they claim it to be a two seater, because they'll have to be very light adults with very little fuel.

Two seater very, very unlikely. Section S is probably why there are no Dragonflies in the UK, and will remain the reason for no 2 seater Dragonflies.
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Re: SSDR to go up to 300kg? Dec announcement?

Postby Randombloke » Sun Oct 27, 2013 4:25 pm

nev wrote:As you say, the Quantum is only really suitable for Rigids. That was sadly demonstrated 2 years ago and the circumstances still anger me .


Another Aerotow incident with a Quantum, accident report here:

http://bhpa.co.uk/documents/safety/formal_investigations/index.php?doc=2013_06_02_hg-balado-aerodrome.pdf
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Re: SSDR to go up to 300kg? Dec announcement?

Postby nev » Sun Oct 27, 2013 6:15 pm

Gordon Bennett, that reads like a script from Fawlty Towers!

I think we suffer here in the UK from relatively low usage (especially clubs that only tow in the default of no wind).
Clubs like Cambridge seem better and more established**
Moving to the Moyes Dragonfly would be a major step forward.
We could learn so much from the USA, and IMO the BHPA should be corroborating with the USHGA (or even just the centres of excellence of Quest & Wallaby) on process improvement.

Nev [steps off soapbox]

** - although not always perfect. At Cambridge, they have their wooden mounts (that the basebar rests on) fitted back to front. This means at the front there is nothing for the basebar to butt up against, and a sudden jolt/tug could easily pull the glider/pilot off the trolley. Luckily the CFI is an excellent, sensitive tuggie who takes it gently, but nevertheless its an accident waiting to happen IMHO. I have raised the issue with 3 of the guys there who disagree with my assertion - I have also checked what they are doing with Questair (they have dozens of trollies and is where the design originated) and they have concurred the aforementioned set-up is wrong.
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Re: SSDR to go up to 300kg? Dec announcement?

Postby Randombloke » Mon Nov 25, 2013 9:25 am

Looks like the announcement will still happen but it's unlikely to be at the Flying Show.

Keep 'em peeled.
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Re: SSDR to go up to 300kg? Dec announcement?

Postby oliver chitty » Mon Nov 25, 2013 6:32 pm

Nothing is certain untill the BMAA CAA and LAA agree.... and when does that ever happen!
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Re: SSDR to go up to 300kg? Dec announcement?

Postby Randombloke » Tue Dec 24, 2013 9:04 pm

The meeting where this will be finalised is now scheduled for February with the legislation resulting if it happens to go in the April ANO revision.

Paul D at Flylight is across this from the BMAA side, so, Ollie, I'm expecting you to break the good news if it happens....
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Re: SSDR to go up to 300kg? Dec announcement?

Postby oliver chitty » Wed Dec 25, 2013 3:26 pm

i Already know 99% of the details, lets just wait for the approval :)
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Re: SSDR to go up to 300kg? Dec announcement?

Postby Randombloke » Fri Dec 27, 2013 8:45 pm

oliver chitty wrote:i Already know 99% of the details, lets just wait for the approval :)


Brilliant, it falls to you to explain said detail to the SHGC Aerotow syndicate.
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Re: SSDR to go up to 300kg? Dec announcement?

Postby chasleton » Sat Dec 28, 2013 9:13 am

Get in the queue Steve :)
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Re: SSDR to go up to 300kg? Dec announcement?

Postby nev » Mon Dec 30, 2013 11:07 am

Currently at the library after the storms have rendered us without Internet for 6 days.

I had to come to this forum to see if the SSDR regs had changed yet. Is that <Sad> or <Justifiably excited> ? .....delete as appropriate :)
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Re: SSDR to go up to 300kg? Dec announcement?

Postby chasleton » Mon Dec 30, 2013 8:27 pm

I am excited but where's the money coming from
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